on bicycle we have two brakes, front and back. My BRZ understears badly. Every statement made in favor of more weight over the rear cited the 911 as evidence in favor when in fact the 911 is the PERFECT example of more weight over the rear being a problem. As far as I have been able to research, and I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, BMW is the only major car company that strives to have all its cars with a 50/50 weight distribution. I have a 400 hp Austin healey sprite E modified built for autocross. If 100 different people bought a ticket, how many would win? Keeping the MX-5 at a 50/50 weight balance allows the driver to have a smoother and more connected experience only adding to the fundamental freedom the driver has behind the wheel of a Mazda. And that's exactly the 13-year-old's problem. On the serious side, I am trying to quantify his answer from a mathematical perspective but I believe that the whole premise of his reasoning is wrong (but I am not sure where). Is it known to have these handling characteristics? Magle Chemoswed is pleased to announce that PharmaCept GmbH has today confirmed the expanded distribution of the medical device EmboCept® S DSM 50 µm based on the Magle Chemoswed technology platform into the Nordic region. For the longest time, companies like BMW advertised that they have a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. But those setups also don’t lend themselves to practicality either; and in the case of a rear-engine configuration, engine choices are generally limited to lighter weight engines. Just thinking a bit more after RACER LUKE’s note: Yes probably when we hear “ideal” 50/50 WD in articles and ads that is usually a BMW-Nissan GTR-Aston Martin or Mercedes C coupe when they try to sell a nice sporty executive car. Through exploring this with him he can come to understand that not all game states are equally likely. Each ticket is either a winning one or a losing one, and there is only one winning ticket. Then offer the bag to your son, disallowing him to look inside and telling him only that the bag contains blue and red pieces of colored paper and if he draws a red piece, he wins. So in otherwords, although rear-bias weight distribution is not ideal for steering stability, they use other design features to remedy this problem such as suspension tuning (compression, rebound, etc), and steering geometry (wheelbase, track width, toe, camber, etc.). The examples that you’re trying to give with rear weight biased racing- or even supercars are reduntant, because those cars are not meant to lose traction (ever). Ask him to put some of his lawn-mowing money down...and see if he really believes in his thesis. No one with a competent understanding of basic physics can confidently say that 911’s are the way that they are because it is ideal. That’s why it will oversteer. When people tell you a car handles well, they may actually be referring to the tune of the suspension. Humans are biased to the familiar and exciting, so we assume that it is common too. Voluntarily blocking the rear wheel playing a role to give you a the trajectoire you want on loose terrain . To provide 50 Plus Marketplace News at the household level in each community we serve. With few exceptions, street cars are generally tuned to have understeer regardless of their weight distribution – they are just safer that way… My not liking it is why I am looking at these things. The difference is, is how the suspension is tuned. :). The answer to that question would be driving in perfect circles. So now you might ask, “Why don’t more cars have a better weight distribution?”, well, in the real world; its hard to make an everyday car like this because it requires moving the engine very far back. But remember this is a general rule and I have seen some cars that are actually reverse of this. When you are making a car go through a corner, of any radius, you are making it rotate not turn if you wish to go fast. I’m not really sure how you came up with the lame pun in the headline or why you thought you were busting automotive myths, but I hope you can accept it now. The front wheels lock and you cant steer plus the bike begins to do a “stoppie” (opposite of a wheelie.) for a street car, the closer to 50/50, the better and is really why Porsche is trying to push the engine forward (Per is right here too though in that its also to lower the Inertia) . Motorcycles are not much different from bicycles physically speaking. I am trying to understand why my car handles so poorly. However, you could simulate a lottery at home, using a die. You could even sweeten the deal by having some candy as a reward, which will serve to further drive the point home later. This is because the car cannot put the power down. In a forward-biased car (rear drive), a steady-state corner would maintain the forward bias, but putting power down correctly through the corner, would shift the weight toward the rear, bringing it closer to 50/50. Although he did not say it I assume the author was not intending to imply that weight in large amounts actually behind the rear axle would help with turning. It doesn’t really have that much to do with the weight distribution or how fast the car is.. 50/50m weight distro makes it easier for novice drivers to NOT get into trouble. why do you think that a rear weight bias gives the tendency to oversteer? In road cars this might be a lesser problem as manufacturers are not limited with the size of tires they can use, but racing categories are limited, therefore weight distribution is a huge factor. A simple proof of that is that only a handful of people had ever won the lottery, not half of the players. "Major Distribution" is a song by American hip hop recording artist 50 Cent, was released as a single in promotion for his upcoming fifth studio album Street King Immortal. They probably should hire him, as he will lead them to countless wins. Generally I would agree that 50/50 is not a perfect distribution but I dont agree with the general pathos of the article which seems (at least to me) to claim that putting nearly the whole weight in the back is great, or that something like 30/70 rear bias is a cool thing when it is not. This however is different then a street car due primarily to the way that we drive on public roads vs. how we drive on a track. Does winning have to satisfy a requirement to profit from the win? As proof, we look to SourceToday’s Top 50 Industrial Distributor ranking, which highlights the 2018 performance of the world’s largest distributors. He suggests we want ALL the weight on the back while accelerating which is the definition of a drag car doing a wheelie. What suspension changes have you tired? Get 10 or more coins, and tell your child that winning means all heads face up when you toss the coins. If it is flawed, no matter how you try, you will never be able to make the setup as perfect as with correct weight distribution. Of course, if you go this route, be a good parent afterwards and give him some candy anyway. Fan out to show all the cards. N50 statistic defines assembly quality in terms of contiguity.Given a set of contigs, the N50 is defined as the sequence length of the shortest contig at 50% of the total genome length. In order to do that, we should (must?) thank god for the 6 degree + caster in the front that centers the steering when i remove my fingers from the wheel for a Milli second! I took this car to compete in local national mono series. Crack in paint seems to slowly getting longer. Also, the scenario of a guess being correct is no different from the scenario of guessing correctly. If your son is not Donald Duck's super-lucky cousin - whose name I cannot recall - then you will give him some food for thought. But my brother (who does play the lottery) objected: He said that if you don't play then you can't win, but if you do play then you can win. A car with minimal power and traction is … So that’s why they invented the rear transaxle on their front engine cars, to keep weight balanced, ending up with close to 50/50 in those compromises. BUT IRL having some power on understeer isn’t bad so IRL i would definitely have a 911. Most judges in this state favor awarding each party fifty percent of the marital property, unless certain factors make a good case for an unequal distribution. Bear in mind that a static weight distribution of 50/50 will change dramatically from power on/off, braking. Would it have been better if I used a 1966 Ford GT40 which also has a 60% rear distribution and is a pre-downforce car? According to your son, about half of your shots should be on target, however, given your son is not Steph Curry, you will have again a chance to explain him how the relative size of the basket narrows down the chances that you hit the target about half of the times. Most of the time, when people claim that 50/50 weight distribution is best, they are referring to the drivability and balance of the car. Look at the BRZ-FRS-GT86. It just means that the car responds well to drive input and has good dynamic properties; all of which can achieved through suspension tuning regardless of where the weight is in the car. Say that a player wins if they guess right the next outcome. Better corner entry: Cars with a rear weight bias will steer quicker and have a natural tendency to oversteer. I read your blog above with interest. You can follow all the replies to this entry through the comments feed. The Big 50 interviews were conducted via email, survey and by phone by Industrial Distribution editorial staff. Although he did not say it I assume the author was not intending to imply that weight in large amounts actually behind the rear axle would help with turning. The chance of choosing one of those six right is 1/100. For those interested in understanding the physics, a perhaps useful concept is that if the chassis can be assumed to be rigid, all the mass properties boil down to the mass, center of mass location, and moment of inertia (matrix). The distribution’s peak is off center toward the limit and a tail stretches away from it. Okay, so you meant the position of the ball. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the weight distribution of your car is quite good. To have better control on the rear wheel under hard braking they fit a small brake to help the rider avoid locking the rear wheel. – Car lover. How to explain that winning the lottery is not a 50/50 distribution? A longer moment arm creates a larger counter-moment against this lifting effect to keep traction on the rear wheels. If you can change the roll or spring stiffness (removing a leaf or two?) Discussing the finer points of automobiles. The original poster talks about acceleration out of the corners but does not talk about lateral G forces which the heavy rear is unable to handle and loses grip. It is this mass that causes the problems with the 911. Having this weight in the back naturally uses all of the tires more efficiently during braking, instead of overloading the front tires which is what tends to happen in a front biased car. What you can do is get your corner weights equal, but that requires special scales and is pretty labor intensive. Take a marshmallow (or some small candy that you know he likes), show it to him, then put it into one hand behind your back and say: "If you pick the hand with the marshmallow, you can have it. That thing handled like a dream! believe it or not this thing does not never ever ever understeer!! @Noiralef Indeed, half of the fun of the joke is that while everyone knows it's a ridiculous way to calculate the probability, It answers the "why?" Note: I have found this particular post strikes a nerve in many of its readers. Basically when you want to have fun (if you understand the concept). Also, probability is a really hard concept for humans to understand and comprehend, especially when it comes to massive numbers such as 90 million. Inspired by the AE86, the FR-S is designed around the core goal of achieving “Pure Balance,” which begins with the strategic use of the world’s only flat boxer engine in a front-engine, rear-wheel drive configuration. * Retail and OEM Part Numbers will be determined by your selected options when you place your order. This article has given me quite a fresh insight and has brought to light a lot of things I didn’t realise. my knowledge of that particular platform is both intimate and extensive. Or, imagine a lottery with 100 tickets, of which only one was a winner. which is achieved through a pronounced rear spring rate bias. If I am incorrect I am also sure he will correct me. 911s still have rear engine layout because this is a tradition and the history of the 911 brand. On an Mtb it’s a different thing . There is only one way of winnning the lottery: Guessing all the numbers correctly. here is the first link, read the paragraph on B series: http://911evolution.com/911_20/911_20.htm, And a 2012 911s. It was awesome for me, however you should know that in stock form it leans hard to the outside of the turn. No clue what you're getting at with the "choose a number" thought experiment - the odds of guessing 0-9 correctly in one guess is 1/10, not 1/2. In fact, it's much easier than the lottery. I’m sitting g in a BRZ. – Better acceleration as weight is over the driving wheels (rear). Having the great majority of the vehicle mass in between the front and rear axes would have to be the most important thing to achieve if you want great handling, followed by weight distribution – 50/50 is good. fifty fifty right? There is different kinds of oversteer. At that point he knows he can't just guess. That’s why it’s rear-engined. If you don't buy any tickets at all, what's your chance of winning? Optimal breaking would probably be somewhere closer to 50/50 weight dist. Likewise, if you could get the bike to have 50% of the weight on the front wheel 50% on the rear DURING extreme braking that would be ideal for braking traction using front-rear brakes (assuming identical tires front/rear). This notion of "probability distribution" can be a good way to put words to the notion that just because you have X possibilities, doesn't mean they all have to be equally likely... and that saying they are is in fact a very specific thing to say, something you'll only do under specific circumstances (either they actually are equally likely, or you have no information to say they aren't and thus follow the Principle of Insufficient Reason). So his "whole premise of his reasoning is wrong" as you say because he is ignoring millions of possible outcomes! Between the high center of gravity and the short wheel base, MUCH more weight is dynamically transferred during braking events. Only thing i can think of is adding weight to rear but where and how much ? Problem is that there isn’t much at the back, other than a solid rear axle (with diff) and the fuel tank, while my leaf spring are also quite light, as they have 5 leaves not 9. This car does not turn it plows. Are there situations where chance is not 50-50? We race on multiple surfaces usually wet clay limestone with warer we get plenty of slip and ruts but after a few laps rubber lays down and advans 048s grip well ! Use MathJax to format equations. 50/50 is a common default whenever there is a sense of uncertainty. At indoor sites, we use wire racks and table top plastic stands to offer copies. Better corner exit: For the same reason given for better acceleration. i dont have a motorcycle but i have a bicycle. But be careful when making a change this big since it could make the car dangerous. I guess your right that the position of the engine has nothing to do with better braking… but usually the engine is the heaviest lump of anything in the car and does effect the cars overall weight balance. I did KWs coilivers and have the drop about level on all four corners. Again an entire white paper here. My credentials: on bicycle we have two brakes, front and back. Trump Administration To Roll Back Draconain Obama CAFE Standards. The fact is that my Porsche race car chews through rear brake pads slightly faster then my fronts but I have it biased to use maximum net brake force. MathJax reference. 1: the above mentioned slightly aft biased weight distribution Many people think that a 50-50 distribution is the end-all and most optimal setup for performance, which is simply not true. What if you could buy all the tickets? !1 Cheers! When we have more mass, we have more weight transfer on rear than front. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. They just know the rules very well and don’t have to design cars with usable rear legroom. If you swap driving styles, the forward-bias car will drive straight into a tree, and the rear-bias car will spin sideways into that same tree. Streetcars are easier to understand these days than those 1960’s porsches, because for the most part, their dynamics are dictated by the litigious society we live in. It should be noted that this information applies only to rear or 4wd cars. When the game ends, sit him down and dump out the bag in front of him. Better acceleration: With more weight over the rear axle, its obvious that there is going to be more traction. When Porsche built an ultimate supercar (carrera GT) they put the engine in the middle, not behind rear axle. For further "model-breaking" (let's call it Socratian questioning of the child's mental model): if 1 lottery ticket has 50-50 chance of winning, what are my chances if I have 2 tickets? Here’s a good way to test a mechanics knowledge on something other than fixing things: ask one what causes your rotors to warp. The beemers you drive hard in almost the same manner as you would while commuting, and they’ll drive like they are on rails without you thinking about it, but they are a bit cumbersome when swift direction changes are asked of them. There is the kind that happens while cornering and the kind that happens under power. The list ranks the best companies to sell for among the top sales forces in the US, encompassing companies of all sizes and sales forces from fewer than 100 salespeople to those with thousands of them. Those cars did not ratio the tires to the weight distribution, nor were wide tires even available at that time. I have a 1928 Bentley with a 200bhp engine, at the front (just behind the front axle) but the car is rather special, in that it is very light – weighing in at 850kg (under 2000 lbs). 137 lb.in in the front and 211 lb/in in the rear. You are certain to win. Not to mention how the rear weight car actually makes their life harder just because of their weight Another approach could be to get out of house to some basketball court and take shots blind-folded. The heavy rear of the car is going to have more momentum than the light front end; because of that, it takes more effort to change the heavy ends direction – why it lacks that effort is where all the tire loading stuff comes in – which you point out. So that brings us to your Alfa. This seems like a confusion in semantics. A Single-Phase, 50 Hz Distribution Line has two conductors in parallel with a distance of 2.25 m apart. Selling Power has unveiled its “50 Best Companies to Sell for in 2020,” and four of Industrial Distribution’s current Big 50 List companies made the cut.. What Porsche does have is their massive rearward weight distribution at around 60%. But if you're wrong and you choose again the fraction is now 1 over 3 ... right + wrong, the possible results of your first choice, PLUS the wrong guess you already made, for a total of three outcomes for the one guess ... 1/3 ... and if you keep going you get to 1/10 ... the number of possible guesses for all the numbers that can be chosen is 1/10 ... 10%. What is your chance of winning?". The rear wheel can even lift off the ground during braking. When he says. Eliminating weight overhanging the front and rear axes, and using throttle and brake pedal properly will solve many issues. This leads a lot of people into believing that this is optimal as far as weight distribution is concerned. So, having a 50/50 distribution is not ideal as far as performance is concerned, but why? Weight a minute! And at that point, at future times this comes up (and I expect it would; I find probabilities very hard to keep a mental grasp on) you could answer something like "yes, the odds of winning are 50/50 if there are 2 possibilities if they follow a uniform probability distribution. During a 1g braking even (all in all, a typical professional well designed track car), there is only 420lbs of dynamic weight transfer (1596lbs front and 1204lbs rear). For example, lets say that you have a mid engine car that weighs 2800lbs and has a weight bias of 42/58 (front / rear). I guarantee you’ll find that in hard-acceleration traction testing, extreme rear weight bias is best. This is ideal for my driving style, as I like to brake early, turn in early, and start the car rotating, and power through the corner. As for having extra weight over the drive end (front or rear) to aid traction during acceleration, remember that a lighter car will always out accelerate a heavier car, all else being equal. Newton laws will be responsible only for weight transfer. Maybe engine layout in a racing application is also the result of practicality than simply weight distribution. 4: well below the 10k $ mark (I have other passions besides owning a fast streetcar ;-). Guessing the odds on the lottery has zero cost to him, because as a minor, he isn't legally allowed to play. If we move some mass to back of the car, rear wheels will need to work more in corner. I say just tell him as above. all are making up for this excessive rear bias. From your message, I understand that the car is suffering from too much oversteer – that is, the rear of the car wants to come around. One of the reasons I started this blog was to dispel automotive myths. It depends how many prizes are offered too, and how lots are sold. It’s body roll was extreme, but it turned and accelerated dramatically better in terms of traction (again in terms of traction) than my BRZ even with it’s upgraded tires. Theoretical/academical question - Is it possible to simulate, e.g., a (unicode) LuaTeX engine on an 8-bit Knuth TeX engine? It is about where your feet are. I am relatively sure that my suspension, and traction control systems are not set up even remotely well for the automatic. After your game, you could ask him something like: "Why didn't you win about half of the times but only $X$?" The u/Fit_Distribution_50 community on Reddit. It has no stability in rear under braking and has horrendous inertial and off-throttle oversteer. when you reduce speed, the car will return to the original turning radius Beka, Please read some of the above comments because some of the things you are talking about have been discussed. Distribution Strategy. Another answer suggested illustrating this with dice, and that could be one way: use dice, or even just a coin, to figure out the frequencies of different events. Calculate the following: A. It seems like your a little misinformed on some of the dynamics of handling. But, of course you can overload the tires by having too much weight at the rear of the car. The pros adjust bias to the back as tire pressures come up. Learning how to manage these intense feelings is probably a useful part of the discussion and education about probabilities. The first guess is 1/10, then 1/9 (because there are only 9 options if the first number was wrong), until it is a 100% chance on the tenth guess. My question for Mr. Milmont is “Why do people swear by these cars and their handling” and many claim that they handle better than Porsches and Vettes?” I’m not trying to be a smart ass, I just want a legitimate answer because I’m also considering purchasing a first generation Toyota MR2 with mod engine, obviously more weight in the rear. In the context of his answer he's absolutely right so instead of these other answers where you challenge his views ... "explain probability to me" ... you need to focus on understanding the context of his answer. The guy above explains this as all BRZs, but I just can not imagine they all handle this poorly… This thing should not even be called a sports​ car. Hi guys a bit of help would be appreciated we race a grass roots local league called dirt circuit . Also, try to provide some proof or sources to backup your claims. Thank you for not providing any data or reasons to back up your claims, and instead call me names. Of course, it is possible to have too much rearward weight distribution which causes inefficient use of the tires and bad handling characteristics. Yes, everybody likes Porsches, because they are built like tanks, they’re fast and sexy. But in a steady state corner, a car with a light rear will tend to understeer. Hopefully i will harvest some interesting feedback here. Especially for your 13 year old. On a similarly rebellious note, the universally taught apex technique is wrong. He would be right if there was only winning and losing, but, given your numbers, there are actually winning and over 90 million varieties of losing. Little did I know that I would strike a nerve with so many people. it is because of this suspension tuning that allows the car to be driven in either a neutral or oversteer manner depending on how the driver manipulates weight transition through corners. Some of this also has to do with the force vectors wanting to pivot the vehicle over the front wheel. Remember also that static weight distribution changes dramatically under acceleration/braking. How do I figure out how many monomer configurations I need for my simulation? 50 – 50 is more of a psychological sale strategy as the average human being always feels that equal is safe and perfect while in fact it does not matter at all! Because a rear weight bias has a natural tendency to cause oversteer (a trait that is deemed unsafe in street cars because it can cause a more severe crash) the geometry of the suspension and the springs rates are set up to limit traction at the front tires. It does look like your is a handful though. I’ve been reading car mags for quite a few decades now, and have watched more Top Gear episodes than I’d care to admit to so I understand that 50:50 is ‘received wisdom’ and the most comfortable for commuting. dev. When we know and hear about events, they become familiar and intensity of the discussion cements the event into our memory more intensely. For super cars and race cars, the optimum weight distribution is 57% in rear and 43% in front axle. But, mechanics don’t do such a great job when I tell them to design a suspension system that keeps bumpsteer to a minimum, keeps the roll centers stable, minimizes dive, keeps the car level during cornering and still be compliant. Without going into the mathematics to deeply I would say it boils down to this: I just like to drive . Regardless of whether he "wins", tell him to put his piece back in the bag, then mix up the contents of the bag and have him try again. But mind (1) and (2). I hope you still monitor this blog. Trail brake, mid to late turn in. So overall it comes down to what one considers optimal. Almost never. Many 911’s need to use power to kill understeer on entering a bend. No, they are not.